CS:Hayai Oujou

This is the archived review page for the rejected featured article nomination of Hayai Oujou. Because the author of the article left objections uncorrected for over one month, the nomination was rejected and archived. Should the author return to correct their objections, they may renominate the article for featured article status, but only if they first correct the objections.

Featured article nomination (rejected)
Approve


 * 1) Yes. Great job with the lightsaber blades, as well.  Drewton  [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 03:06, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) *Striking until Victor's objections are addressed. Drewton  [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 02:44, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 3) Very good job. Nicely detailed, informative, and neatly edited. --[[Image:Xepeyon.JPG|35px]] You Speak, I've Spoken 18:13, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 4) *Nullifying my vote per the objections in Vic's review. --[[Image:Xepeyon.JPG|35px]] You Speak, I've Spoken 03:27, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 5) - Solus  (Bird of Prey)  18:33, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 6) *Per Vic's objections. - Solus (Bird of Prey)  17:18, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 7) -- [[Image:Darth tom sig.png|100px]] (talk) (contributions) 07:02, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 8) *You guys should really take a look at the objections below; your votes of approval are outdated. :P --Victortalk 02:18, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Objections


 * 1) From Drewton's holocron:
 * 3,872 BBY needs to be linked to.
 * 1) *It should be said in the introduction that Cyril Ahlen Khan was a Jedi.
 * 2) *Since this is a lightsaber form article, a lightsaber really needs to be shown. I'll add lightsaber blades via Photoshop for you if you want.
 * 3) *"Independent" doesn't count as an affiliation. Assuming that's not an actual organization.
 * 4) *"Also, the form had interchangeable blocks and strikes." Would better read as "the form had interchangeable blocks and strikes also".
 * 5) *Cyril Ahlen Khan needs to be linked to in "History".
 * 6) *Jedi Order should be linked to in the same section.
 * 7) *A lot of sentences should be combined. For example, "and" should be used here: "Cyril did not want his unique form to become too well known. He started a tradition of teaching the style to the eldest son, Force sensitive or not, to be carried on into the future."
 * 8) *"Hayai Oujou was an overwhelming opponent in combat." It's not really an opponent.
 * Drewton [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 00:54, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * *I have worked on the written mistakes and edited them. I will work on editing the screenshots. However, I would like to keep at least one picture without a lightsaber blade edited in, if I may, to present the idea that the form can be used with a normal blade as well. Cyril Khan (Talk) 02:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I've put in some pictures that have the lightsaber blades edited in. Cyril Khan (Talk) 02:56, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Let's begin. Anyone who says they reviewed this lied, because there are quite a handful of errors here. just in the intro section.
 * 2) *From the introductory section (infobox, introduction, etc.)
 * 3) **Hide the "Description" field in the infobox since it is unused.
 * 4) **Under "Affiliation", is it "Jedi" or "Jedi Order"? I think "Order" would be more accurate.
 * 5) **"from the forms, Makashi, Soresu, Ataru, Juyo, and Sokan"; No comma after "forms"
 * 6) **"the combat form took a unique route when it started to appear identical to Niman"; First off, unique is POV, and secondly, that sentence is contradictory. How can it be unique yet be just like another form at the same time? Clarify.
 * 7) **"Khan kept the techniques he had put into his style, but he modified the execution and application of them." Sentence feels misplaced because it provides no new information and is basically redundant - we already assume, should assume, and have been told this in preceding sentences.
 * 8) **"It harnessed swift and unpredictable strikes that overwhelmed the opposition" That whole sentence is full of POV. Swift, unpredictable, overwhelmed. Clean it up or kill it. Now you're just glorifying the form needlessly.
 * 9) **"One important advantage of the style was the use of never ending momentum"; Advantage is POV, plus that doesn't even seem like an advantage. More like a trait of the attack or style, skill.
 * 10) **"without stopping or hesitating." Make it "without stopping or hesitation."
 * 11) **"The style seemed reckless, and when being used by an initiate or advanced student it very much was" POV unless you tell us why it was considered reckless. Not everyone could've considered it reckless, otherwise why use it?
 * 12) **"and grace the style needs"; tense, "needs" to needed
 * 13) **"The form had interchangeable blocks and strikes also. The statement," merge these sentences, otherwise that first one seems out of place and it becomes "stating the obvious."
 * 14) **"This does not apply to every technique, but it does to a great many." Fix the tense in that sentence.
 * 15) **"its graceful, never-ending motions" Graceful is POV, no matter how you word it, unless you state who directly believed it to be graceful. Just "for its never-ending motions" is good enough.
 * 16) **"When applied to the metal sword the form was swift and overpowering" Two things: comma after sword, and beyond that, it is POV again.
 * 17) **"The effects of using a lightsaber were then much more astonishing. " To whom? Otherwise, POV and kill it.
 * 18) **"Seeing a Jedi apply this style did not fully reveal the fact that the style was originally designed for the weighted sword. Only the blaster defense techniques revealed this detail." Combine these two sentences otherwise that first one ends up sounding redundant.
 * 19) **"Hayai Oujou was extremely vulnerable to ranged weapons." Remove extremely, POV.
 * 20) **"This weakness existed because a combatant with a weighted sword was not likely to stop the incoming fire anyway" Speculation. Make it fact or remove it entirely and rephrase.
 * 21) *From History; First off, before beginning, I'd like to point out the organization of this article is wrong. The sections "Grip", "Stance", "Offense", "Defense", "Weaknesses", and "Requirements" need to be merged with "Description"; "Applications" is the history, so these two titles are interchangeable. I prefer "Applications", but that's up to you, but basically "History" needs to be History or Applications, and all the stuff under the current Applications section needs to go under the description. So, now, onto the History section.
 * 22) **"primarily developed by Cyril Ahlen Khan when he was twelve." He only developed it when he was twelve or beginning from age twelve? Clarify.
 * 23) **"He had always wanted to create a unique style." Out of place, merge it with the preceding sentence.
 * 24) **"The process was long and painstaking," For whom? POV without telling us to whom.
 * 25) **"but the results were worth the effort." Again, POV unless you state for whom (Cyril is my educated guess)
 * 26) **"Cyril rapidly took his style in a unique direction." How is it "unique", otherwise that is POV.
 * 27) **"However, Cyril noticed the similarities between his creation and Form VI as well." out of place; what does that have to do with anything? Of course he will, he's creating the form off of it (if he wasn't, there is no way he'd know how to use it)
 * 28) **"The student suddenly shifted his route and began thinking differently about his style." This sentence should be merged with the preceding sentence (right above this) to clarify what the point of the preceding sentence was.
 * 29) **" the style had changed drastically from what it had originally been." Drastically is POV.
 * 30) **"The final phase of the creation of Hayai Oujou" The name pops out of nowhere. Give context on why it was chosen, what it means, when it was named as such.
 * 31) **"The weighted blade had modified the styles techniques in a unique way, and the form became extremely unpredictable as a result." This is extremely POV. Remove the POV; you would likely end up killing this sentence because it's just glorification.
 * 32) **"While the techniques would be recognizable, they had all been drastically modified as he developed Hayai Oujou." Drastically is POV (again)
 * 33) **"Cyril did not want his unique form" I think that works in too much POV. Instead, say his personal form or customized/custom form.
 * 34) **"to the eldest son"; to his eldest son? To the eldest son of the family? Please clarify, otherwise it sounds like just any eldest son.
 * 35) **"Force sensitive or not"; link and it should be written as Force-sensitive.
 * 36) **"too many beings to develop strong enough defenses against it" This sentence implies that some did develop defenses. So if that is so, who?
 * 37) **"The style, even though it faced large changes, never lost the melee dominance it originally had." Dominance is POV.
 * 38) *From current Description section:
 * 39) **"A master of Hayai Oujou could be an overwhelming opponent in combat." POV
 * 40) **"The unique style proved to be extremely powerful when used during the conflicts between" Lots of POV. You need to understand POV is not allowed. Stop glorifying the form and take a neutral stance on it. Just because you (or the users) see it that way does not mean it is true. No need to try and include gush in an article.
 * 41) **" The swift blade of the form’s master devastated single opponents and held off multiple foes with ease." Again, a bunch of POV. Plus, give proof (examples) of this or remove it otherwise, because I don't believe, especially with no proof. More gushing praise.
 * 42) **"was one of the best to choose" POV. Not everyone would say that, that's for sure.
 * 43) **"Hayai Oujou demonstrated its ability overpower any opposing melee style." POV, gush, no proof, etc.
 * 44) **"The form that had devastated the sword masters of the Sith and the Bendu was not invulnerable." Devastated is POV again.
 * 45) **"the style was extremely vulnerable to the incoming" More POV; remove extremely. Don't replace it with another fancy word, just remove it.
 * 46) **"This issue led the masters of the form to take on styles that were more effective against ranged combat" Funny, since earlier you said Hayai Oujou was the best choice. Here is proof why you don't use POV to gush over something.
 * 47) **" teach it to any one outside his family"; any one to anyone
 * 48) **"People had heard rumors of the Khan’s fighting style and they feared facing it." What people? Otherwise, POV gush.
 * 49) *More later - I will also review the "revised" intro later again because I can assure you it's still full of errors and POV, plus it's over the top in length.--Victortalk 21:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 50) *From Grip
 * 51) **Combine "Holding the blade lightly allowed the user to execute more flexible strikes against an opponent. Stronger grips were used in defense." Otherwise second one sounds sudden and out of place.
 * 52) **Likewise with the following: "Hayai Oujou master had to move between the firm and light grips quickly. If any mistake were to occur in the transition, the hilt could easily be removed from the hand."
 * 53) **"are noted for losing their lightsaber on their own accord by a poor transfer"; Tense
 * 54) **"This was not to be unexpected form the form;" I think that should be "from the form", spelling. Also, unexpected to whom? Otherwise, POV.
 * 55) **"but added dramatic unpredictability" Gush POV.
 * 56) **"some people"; You mean some users? Please clarify.
 * 57) **" presented a huge adaptive ability and an overwhelming offense to face" More gush POV.
 * 58) *From Stance
 * 59) **"The Hayai Oujou stance usually remained completely constant in combat." I see what you mean, but it doesn't make sense. Maybe "constantly in motion during combat" would work, if that's what you're trying to get at.
 * 60) **Combine the three following sentences: " The form typically used a medium stance. The legs were spread at shoulder length. The forward leg was set forward at shoulder distance as well, so that the body could pivot to the side and maintain the same stance without moving any legs." Otherwise, one could get confused as to what a medium stance is and such. Your sentences need to transition better.
 * 61) **"In reality, the stance was the jack-of-all-trades." Oh wow, that's got to be the worst instance of gushing POV yet. Please kill that ridiculous sentence and reword the preceding one to include neutral context.
 * 62) **"The position allowed for wonderful balance, perfect maneuverability, and swift movements." All POV, gush, etc. Remove this.
 * 63) **"While the stance was the most consistent technique in Hayai Oujou, it was the most important." Reword; including "While" makes no sense and instead the two facts should be combined.
 * 64) **Combine: "Most would say a lighter stance would better fit the maneuverability the style needs. This belief was completely incorrect."
 * 65) *From Offense
 * 66) **"One technique could be executed in so many ways that it could become a form of its own." This is just gush unless you provide context on what this supposed technique was and how it worked.
 * 67) **"result in incapacitation and control cuts"; you mean "controlled cuts"? Tense?
 * 68) **"This is what made a seemingly, highly aggressive form into one usable by even pacifists." Such as who? No example, no sentence. As far as I can tell, Khan was not a pacifist.
 * 69) **"A user would strike at unimportant locations on an enemy"; POV, what makes "locations on an enemy" more important than others? Just remove unimportant altogether.
 * 70) **"These actions seemed rash at first" by whom and why? POV
 * 71) **"but they had an important role in the form." What is that "important" role and why, otherwise more POV.
 * 72) **"These seemingly worthless motions" to whom were they 'seemingly worthless'? I don't see it that way. POV.
 * 73) **"it required perfect precision and extreme flexibility" POV unless you explain why.
 * 74) **"he result was devastating; in the moment the weakness appeared, a Hayai Oujou master would have cut down the opponent" POV, and there is no way anything can always be successful. In its current form, there are no given flaws which makes this a bunch of gush.
 * 75) **" This strategy was very difficult to detect" POV, examples or retract this.
 * 76) **"useless strikes resembled the other offensive strategies" Useless if POV. Remove it or explain why it is "useless"./
 * 77) **Reword and combine with preceding sentences for context: "In the moment a learned opponent would become suspicious, the master user could instantly change into any other aggressive strategy of the form."
 * 78) *From Defense
 * 79) **"Hayai Oujou employed an interesting defense." More POV.
 * 80) **"The user would execute an avoid and evade stratagem" Redundancy; use either avoid or evade, they both mean the same thing.
 * 81) **"set up for a useful counterattack." Remove useful, POV, and needless.
 * 82) **"and an effective counterattack could be made." Remove effective, POV.
 * 83) **"The avoid and evade defense plan was quite brilliant." use one or the other, not both, and major gush POV. Kill that.
 * 84) **"A master of the style could beat nearly any opponent by using their momentum against them." Gush POV, no proof, not believable.
 * 85) **"that makes Hayai Oujou’s defense so effective;" First off, tense, and secondly, POV gush, yet again.
 * 86) **"A master who fought this way was powerful." Gush POV.
 * 87) **"it demonstrated the versatility of Haiyai Oujou." POV
 * 88) **" form extremely difficult to break as well as an offense that was hard to overcome." More POV
 * 89) **" though it was not terribly powerful." POV.
 * 90) **" It was difficult for the cone defense to work all the time" POV
 * 91) **"Because a metal blade couldn’t refract energy " couldn't to could not
 * 92) *From Requirements
 * 93) **"The Khan line was notorious" Notorious to who? Otherwise POV
 * 94) **"became much more dangerous and easier to use." POV
 * 95) **"A powerful hand to eye coordination was necessary," POV
 * 96) **"Also, the user had to be extremely flexible" POV, remove extremely
 * 97) **"The flexibility allowed for the unorthodox strategy the form used." POX; I don't see this as unorthodox, it seems just like any other lightsaber form.
 * 98) **" to be powerful rather than strength. " POV
 * 99) **" If muscles became so strong that speed was lost, the brawny user would lose a vital requirement." Brawny is POV
 * 100) **" on to the more complex style." POV
 * 101) *More later. --Victortalk 21:58, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments

I will review this next. --Victortalk 00:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I know this may sound selfish, but I would like to ask the rest of the Seers to please not vote in approval of this quite yet - tomorrow I will have this undergo an extensive review (as with all my reviews) and I don't want it to get approved with any errors (which I am not sure if it has any or not yet). --Victortalk 07:22, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, I read over this article and didn't find anything, so I was about to give it the final approval vote it needs. I'm going to hold you to finishing it by the end of today, but after that I'll be voting in favor of it. - Brandon Rhea (talk) (contribs) 16:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure there are enough objections from my review thus far (of the Intro and History sections) to warrant holding off the approval. This is not up to FA standards yet. --Victortalk 20:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll get to work on this as soon as I can. Though, I am confused on how application and history are synonymous. Cyril Khan (Talk) 00:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * They aren't by individual definition, but "History" basically means the events of the past of something (in this case the lightsaber form, its conception, and its use) and Applications, in this case, represents when and where (and how) it was applied throughout said history. I said they are interchangeable because it's a matter of preference whether you want to use History or Applications; either is acceptable, as long as they are properly organized, per my objections above. Edit: Also, since other Seers are citing Wookieepedia featured articles as examples, take a look at Form IV: Ataru and Form V: Shien / Djem So, both featured lightsaber combat articles. --Victortalk 02:12, 23 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Applications being synonymous with History is Vic's preference, but you don't have to do that if you are really opposed to it. - Brandon Rhea (talk) (contribs) 01:27, 23 October 2008 (UTC)